The Fifth anniversary of the National Museum of Indian Cinema (NMIC) in Mumbai was graced by the presence of notable dignitaries, including the Consul General of the Republic of Belarus, Aliksandr Matsukou, and Consul of Belarus, Anton Pashkov. The day saw an array of events including a guided tour for visually impaired students from The Happy Home & School for the Blind as well an enriching masterclass by acclaimed director R Balki, in conversation with D Ramakrishnan (GM NFDC).

Following the insightful conversation, cinema enthusiasts enjoyed the screening of R Balki's 'Ghoomer’. The highlight of the event was Balki’s unabashed take on content clutter, not undermining one’s talent and his penchant for addressing social issues without resorting to social messaging. Over the course of the two-hour session the Cheeni Kum director shared some wonderful insights, funny anecdotes and inspiring words for aspiring actors and filmmakers. Excerpts…

I don’t think there is a better film school than going to the set and working with several filmmakers. You learn about life. I was fortunate that I was able to get these experiences, so I didn’t feel the need to do a film school. It’s not that I did it without knowledge, I gained the knowledge. If you can go to a film school, you might probably learn things faster than I did but what you can’t learn is the art of scripting. Scripting doesn’t happen by going to a scripting school because there are a hundredth ways in which you can communicate a story.

Cinema is a tool to express a thought or a story that you have. Nobody is going to see the scale or grandeur of your movie if your story doesn’t touch them, isn’t relatable or doesn’t make them think. I prefer the term engaged, over entertained. There has to be an emotional connect. I don’t want people to be bored or switched off or be distracted while watching a film. Entertainment can be mistaken for laughing, dancing, jumping. People want to be engaged while watching a film.

When I did the Surf Excel commercial, people told me, ‘Everyone’s preaching hygiene and you are saying get dirty (daag acche hai)’! I feel if you are confident about yourself, you will celebrate your enemy. If you have the ability to defend yourself and remove the stains, why would you curse the stains? I am confident enough to celebrate my enemy which is dirt here so come get dirty. I believe cinema is also like that.

I remember I had gone to Amitabh Bachchan ji’s house during Cheeni Kum. Abhishek was there with him, and he was saying some extremely wise things, which is rare (smiles). He is usually the one who cracks jokes. Amit ji was pulling his leg by saying ridiculous things. They were completely opposite to their (father-son) character. I looked at them and said, “who is whose dad!” That thought stayed with me. I knew I wanted to make a film where I will reverse their roles. That’s how Paa happened.

Terms like ‘meaningful messaging’ scare me. If you want to look for meaning in life, go to a meditation app. Why watch a film? You need to be clear about your ambition from the beginning. My thoughts in cinema have been far more frivolous than my thoughts in ads. I always think cinema is serious so why not start with a frivolous thought? Even in Pad Man, my thought was not to convey a social cause. I don’t have a single social cause bone in my body. The film did a lot for menstrual hygiene and awareness, but I didn’t make it for that. I got to make a commercial feature film where the hero of the film was a sanitary napkin. I told Akshay Kumar that though he was the hero of the film, the actual hero was a sanitary pad.

A filmmaker needs to be honest. I am not here to change the world. I am here to explore an idea that doesn’t destroy the world and gives me happiness. Even a Ghoomer wasn’t about showcasing the infallible spirit of a woman who loses her right hand in an accident and learns to bowl with her left. That’s a cinematic given. People tend to glorify anything that’s social as inspirational. It is an inspiring film; yes, but what’s the speciality in this inspiration? What new can you bring to the table is the trick. I believe when you are down and out you tend to be most creative. The biggest joy in Ghoomer was discovering that new bowling delivery in cricket.

I don’t agree with this notion that everyone must work for the film and no individual should want his/her talent to stand out because filmmaking is a group work. I like working with a cinematographer like P C Sreeram because he is a rebel who likes to show off. How can you be a craftsman if you don’t want to show your craft off? How can you hire the best man for the job and tell him to listen to you and expect him to curb his instincts for the sake of the story? The story is not driving him. It’s driving the film. I love the arrogance of artists who have faith in their abilities and put their craft first. As long as your craft doesn’t destroy me, please show off your craft. As a director if I ask you to not show off your talent then I am the devil. I am killing your abilities. I love people who are determined to show their abilities. I want people to notice a cinematographer, music director, choreographer, sound-production designer for the right reasons. If people remember you for the wrong reason, then you are doing a shoddy job. You can’t expect the artists to be submerged in the film. If you look at The Godfather, it works because everybody is showing off and delivers their best. That’s why I like working with P C Sreeram sir and Ilaiyaraaja sir. They are gifted with originality, and they know it. Cinema is all about 'look at me'. When anyone says we need to work as a team and the cause is bigger than individuality, that’s the biggest bull s***. Only when all eleven players try to play their best, will a cricket team succeed.

The presentation is a bit understated and subtle but OTT has some lovely stories about common people. I want these films to cut the walk though. I see content where people just keep walking endlessly long after the scene is over. Cut the walk! Someone is standing on a terrace and watching people aimlessly, thinking. Some filmmakers believe this creates an atmosphere. I get it and it’s their presentation but cut it faster.

Known for films such as Cheeni Kum, Ki And Ka and Pad Man, R Balki gave a masterclass on the topic ‘Negotiating Aesthetics and Economics’ at IFFI (International Film Festival of India) 2022.

Balki said that a lot of films that fail at the box office or do not do well is because people don’t know about those films. He said, “We, in the creative world, tend to live in a bubble. A lot of people didn’t know a film like Chup even existed, and I thought it had free shows and it was great. A lot of my friends whom I met after years asked me, ‘So, what are you doing next?’, and I said I just did Chup, and they asked, ‘What is that?’ I was shocked and stunned. It didn’t reach people. Whether you like or not is different, you don’t even know about it then it is a problem.”

While word of mouth publicity gets a lot of credit for several films, Balki said he hates this cliche. “Word of mouth is mythical. I wonder how it happens? People watch the film and go and tell everyone to watch it? No. It has to be worked out in a manner so that there is already excitement around the project and all they need is a little nudge to go and watch the film. I feel a lot of creativity suffers because of a lack of science. I feel there has to be a scientific process behind word of mouth to be generated,” he added.

Balki said that Bollywood doesn’t have a marketing mechanism. Not minicing his words, he expressed, “The marketing strategy is somebody is creating controversy, somebody is sleeping with someone, create some boycott, some ban. I don’t think we have found the science to market our films and a lot of creative people suffer because of it. Enough investment has not gone into developing how to market films and it is really very sad. So many people are pumping in huge bucks and yet the returns are so less.”

“If you are making 100 films and 90 of them do not make money, then there is definitely something wrong with the industry. There are pundits in this industry – producer pundit, director pundit, writer pundit, trade pundit and media pundits, and they all fall flat. They fall flat and they move on with the next theory without learning a thing. There are fantastic marketing people in cinema, but somehow when they get into this zone then their entire reading of data starts sounding outdated,” he added.

Balki further said that there is no formula for how films work. “It depends upon who does what. You can’t say the audience wants it. No, the audience wants damn good work. Who doesn’t want to see a good film, song or stars saying their best lines? But we all fall flat in understanding the theory without understanding the execution,” he added.

Balki said that the stars are making one fundamental mistake that they are getting caught up in the producers’ money making machine. He said, “(They think) If I want to charge this amount then I have to do this kind of work and only then will I be able to recover the money. A lot of smaller ideas could have become bigger if bigger stars would have invested in them. Some stars have experimented and have fallen flat and have chosen to not experiment again while some stars have gone for tried and tested formulas.”

He said that Kamal Haasan experimented in the 80s with films like Sadma. Talking about Shah Rukh Khan, he said, “Shah Rukh has done Dear Zindagi. He also experimented with Swades and Paheli. If those films had worked, it would have taken a different turn. He is one of the most intelligent people in Indian cinema.”

Five years ago, R Balki’s Ki & Ka starring Kareena Kapoor Khan and Arjun Kapoor opened conversations about reversing socially accepted roles played by a man and a woman in a marriage. Arjun, celebrating five years of the film this week, posted a picture of a mangalsutra, which was used for the film’s shoot. “A piece of memorabilia from ki & ka!!! Missing the set and missing the on screen Ki... this film was personal as I chose it for my mom and it’s now even more personal after working with Bebo and Balki sir... I think we need a sequel, what say @kareenakapoorkhan? (sic),” he wrote. His co-star, Kareena, agreed with him and said, “A film that must be made into a sequel... only cause I want to work with @arjunkapoor and Balki once again... (sic).” The actors clearly hinted at a sequel to the movie through their social media conversation.

R Balki, who directed, produced and wrote the film, said, “Ki & Ka is special because it was released around my producer Anil Naidu’s birthday.”

“Anil is no more and I miss his presence in a big way. It’s one of those films that happened organically and fast. Bebo, Arjun, and I had a great time working together. In fact, we have spoken about working together again many times after that,” said Balki.

Elaborating on the possibility of a sequel, the director shared, “I have never made a sequel to any of my films for numerous reasons. Come to think of it, when we made Ki & Ka, we had to explain a lot of things in detail. Today, if I were to make a sequel, it would be simpler to handle, with fewer explanations to offer about the way things are, because a lot has changed around us. Having said that, I don’t have thoughts of making a sequel. Only when Bebo and Arjun were talking to me recently (on the film’s fifth anniversary) did it strike me that there could really be a sequel here. Let’s see! If an idea comes up then, maybe we would think of it.”

When asked what he plans to make next, R Balki, who had directed Akshay Kumar’s Pad Man in 2018, said, “I will be starting my next film in July. I can’t talk about it yet, but I have the details underway. Let’s hope it goes as planned.”

He writes lines that creates brands. He sells ideas that tell a story. At the core, his thoughts are simple, but his movies lather up fresh images and frothy emotions, probably with more jhaag than the detergent he advertises.

R Balki doesn't dish out the usual Bollywood broth; in fact, there is nothing usual about his stories. Not even the lead pair or their romantic ramblings. So what, if there's cheeni kum or a little less masala in his plot¸ he's known for his rare recipes. And his movies leave a delectable aftertaste that lingers. Call it an acquired taste if you please. His next, Ki & Ka starring Kareena Kapoor Khan and Arjun Kapoor, is about breaking gender stereotypes. Balki does that best ­ break stereotypes. No wonder, he cast a man who reeks of machismo, Arjun, in a role of a doting, domesticated hubby. Wearing apron, mittens, et al. “In our country when we see a man doing feminine stuff, we always think he is a bit of a woman. Arjun is all masculine, and when he does gentle stuff there is no chance of questioning his masculinity,“ Balki says.

He's an ideas man. Does he ever know when an idea is not working? He's quick to admit, “Eighty per cent of the time your idea works and you get a license to be in the creative field. Twenty per cent of the time, even if you start without an iota of doubt, you will fail. But in advertising it is much simpler, as the next opportunity comes to redeem you much faster. In movies, it takes a wee bit longer.“

He adds, “People don't see ideas, they see a film. For the filmmaker it is about the idea, though often you can have a superb idea but a boring film.“ For someone who sees daily churn of creative ideas, he is overtly critical about his own work. He explains, “I analyse a lot before making a film, not once it is done. I never watch my ads or my film. In fact, if I know my movie is playing on television, I switch the channel. I am deeply embarrassed with everything I have ever done in my life. When you finish a film you feel like you are the genius of the century, three days after that you start remembering things you have done.“

He pauses and adds, “I am objective about my work. After I finished Shamitabh, I got the best review from the usher at a multiplex. He told me, 'Sir, films need some reaction like mast tha, boring tha, sad tha. But you haven't given them a vocabulary, and it's not a very positive thing.' By that he meant that two people had died pointlessly and the whole film had become insignificant for no reason. It was such a superb way of looking at it. When you leave the audience without words, they don't know how to react when asked about the film. That is a dangerous thing. So now on, it's simple ­ no one will die in my films ever again (laughs).“

He has set his benchmark high, so when Shamitabh didn't evoke the response he expected, it must have deeply affected him. He expresses, “One way is to question if you were right, and if you do that you are dead. The other way of looking at it is...okay some people disagree, so what? I was going on to the path of questioning myself, but I saved myself that pain. I am surrounded by the right people who tell me when my work is s**t. They even tell me that 'don't be s**t for too long'.“

Balki is not the kind to resort to empty hyperbole. He's modest, even self-deprecating. But I am sure there is a creative arrogance in the man too. “My only arrogance is that I can write and I won't stumble for a script. The decision to write is what takes time. I don't make magnum opuses, or construct palaces, so I never shoot for more than 45-50 days, as it gets too painful. And I start feeling distant from the film. My stories are very people centric, so I like to be in that zone.“

Talking about zones, there is one he loves being in and it's called the Amitabh Bachchan zone. I have met innumerable Bachchan fans. Then I met Balki. A fan who takes his idol for granted. Hold on, he has an explanation for that too. Like a child on a sugar-high, he excitedly says, “People hesitate to say things about icons like Ilaiyaraaja, PC Sreeram and Amitji. For me it is much simpler to disagree with them than with anyone else from the industry. It's not that I am over familiar with Amitji, but I can take him for granted. Besides these few people I mentioned, and Gauri (Shinde) too, I never take anyone else for granted. I am not a director who likes to see Amitji doing what he has not done before. I want to do with him what I want to see in him ­ as a fan. I have grown up watching his films and it is easy for me to write for Amitji; the tone of Hindi changes while writing for him. I could write his drunken scenes, arrogant lines and witty lines in my sleep.“

So, does that mean he has a creative understanding with Mr Bachchan, too? “No,“ he exclaims, “I don't have any understanding of the way he is or what he is thinking, but I have a very good understanding of how he is as an actor. During Shamitabh, Amitji was very grouchy throughout the film. I asked him if there was a problem, and if I have killed somebody? He looked at me and said, 'I am in character.' After Shamitabh, I swore that I would never again write a serious film for Mr Bachchan.“

Balki balks at the word 'inspiration'. “How do I know what will inspire me? To me, that inspiration is called 'luck'. I was staring at a tree when I thought of Ki & Ka. I was travelling in a cab and I thought of Shamitabh. I am just lucky that ideas fall into my lap. I can't call myself a genius for that. I only use my skills to shake that luck.“

Well, I take that bit with a pinch of salt and we move on to discussing what the most shocking thing about gender stereotypes is? “The fact that we are still discussing it.“ He asserts, “The fact that we still find it so cute to see a man at home, while the woman is working. I think men and women are compelled to do certain things fearing what the society will think of them. Society is not feeding or clothing you, so who are they to comment on your life?“ Ki & Ka makes marriage appear cool. It gives us a fresh take on an institution that is often a hot topic of debate in young circles. “My point is that you should never be able to say if two people are married. You should see a couple and think that they are in love and are having an affair. Why can't marriage be as cool as romance? Marriage, the way it is defined, makes it a flawed institution. If it is defined as something else, maybe it will make things better. You can't force two people to be bound just because of a legal bond. I believe you should have annual renewals of the marriage contract (laughs).“

Well, how much of the 'Ka' does he see in him? “Well, Gauri and I both work, and we do our share for the house. People say they don't take their work home, but we take all our work home. We talk and fight about it, too. Our life is films. Sometimes, I cook and put the clothes in the washing machine. The way the house looks is completely Gauri's territory. She wants my advice and then she will reject it (grins). I can't show that I am not interested, as that will upset her. Often, I don't show that sensitivity, so Gauri's statement to me is, 'I wish you were some of the characters you write'. I always tell her I can't put myself in my characters, because I am already living myself. I would write about what I want to be and can't be.“

R Balki, 50, may not have a great memory but he is certainly original. He is hugely emotional and highly innovative and is amongst the few men who consider women not just equal to men, but in fact, better. Ahead of his upcoming drama Shamitabh, he talks to Bombay Times about the original Amitabh Bachchan, his reasons for staying away from advertising awards and why Gauri is both his emotional anchor and tsunami. Excerpts:

How did you come into advertising?
I am a Tamilian, born and brought up in Bengaluru. I never knew what advertising was, but was always interested in telling stories and wanted to make films. My father used to watch a lot of movies and he used to take me with him to see a lot of films, but I never liked films till one day, an aunt who was our neighbour, forced me to see a Tamil movie with her, which had Ilaiyaraaja's music.Something happened to me and I started loving it. I then saw Moondram Pirai, the original of Sadma in Tamil, and decided that I wanted to make films. The closest film institute to Bengaluru was Chennai, so, I went there but I didn't get admission there as I walked out of the institute as I didn't like the people who interviewed me. They expected me to be an Encyclopedia and started asking me questions about who shot that particular scene in a particular film. I had come to tell stories and not remember who did what. I was always fascinated by computers, so, went on to doing an MCA, but got thrown out of college for not attending as I was always just watching films. One day, I saw an ad in the paper asking me to write 100 words on the person I was. What interested me was that the logo in the ad I had seen was of Mudra, the same logo that would come at the end of the serial Buniyaad that was co-produced by Mudra and Ramesh Sippy. So, I comfortably assumed that the ad was from Ramesh Sippy and that the Mudra logo belonged to him. I had been a big Ramesh Sippy fan for him having made Sholay and Saagar and decided to go to the Mudra interview, hoping to meet Ramesh Sippy there. The HR head Nagananda Kumar met me and said, 'You need to be groomed for advertising.' Starting MICA in Ahmedabad was his idea as he believed that people could be trained for advertising and thus, I was packed off with 6 boys as the first guinea pigs for starting MICA in Ahmedabad. We watched three films a day for 6 months and while of course, I did not get to meet Ramesh Sippy, I got fascinated with advertising. Advertising gave me the chance to solve problems for a client with a solution through my story and the client was paying for it. I got addicted to it and after 14 years, I finally met Ramesh Sippy at an advertising function and told him how he was the reason for me to be in advertising.

Talk about your father?
My father was in the housing department of LIC, but never had a house himself. He wanted to always be a lawyer, but could not due to all his responsibilities. He had studied law and can you imagine, the day he retired he took up practising law and till today at 77, he is doing that and works from 9am to 9pm. It's fascinating to see how a man can change his career at the age of even 60. Life almost begun for him the day he retired.

Who do you love the most in the world?
My wife Gauri (Gauri Shinde). She is both my emotional anchor and tsunami. It takes an incredible human being to put up with me. She is not any less or docile, she has all the idiosyncrasies of a creative person like me, but she has the ability to put up with another tantrumatic person and she does it while being herself and that is an achievement. She looks better than me. She is a better human being than I am. She is a far more sensitive person than I am. She is definitely a better filmmaker than I am. I met her in Lintas where she was working in the films' division and we did a film together. I fell in love with her and, of course, chased her and she said yes and she regrets it from that day. She can see something happening three miles away that I can't see even a feet away. She will say, 'This is going to happen' and I will say, 'Rubbish, you just get hyper'. And it will happen. And she will say, 'See, I told you' and I say, 'Never tell me as I will make the same mistake again.' I am more a rebel than she is. But she is far more clear about life than I am. I am in the category of people that consider men less than women. As I feel for men it's just bravado for nothing. We are weak, we don't have the strength of women, we might be just a little heavier than women, but they have more brains and are more beautiful and the entire world power is with them.

What was the worst period of your life?
After seven years of being with Mudra, I had a problem with the manager who had come as the new branch head. I was the creative head of Bengaluru and could not see eye to eye with him. I called Mr Krishnamurthy, who I respected a lot, to tell him how I wanted to leave due to that manager. Mudra was my life at that time. He tried to sort out things, but couldn't, so one day, I sent him a message saying, 'I am going as I can't take it anymore.' He sent me back a message saying, 'Go. Speak to you after one year.' I got damn hassled. Someone had told me you can go as he could not do anything about it as he needed that person more than he needed me. For three months I just sat at home like a zombie. I didn't know what hit me as I thought I was indispensable. I finally joined Lintas and have since been there for 20 years. But I learnt that you may think something is your own, but they may not think so, and you always need to have that at the back of your mind that it is somebody else's.

What makes you stay away from advertising awards?
Advertising is not a piece of art that you will judge. You cannot compare two creative solutions without understanding the problem. I once went to Cannes as a judge. There are only very few people who are capable of understanding whether something is genuinely creatively lateral. I did everything to make the jury understand how creative the Thanda Matlab Coca Cola campaign was, given the context of India and its popularity, but they refused to understand it and instead gave an award to a creative-looking ad instead. I realised that it was futile being part of such a jury. We were the first advertising agency to have taken a stance to stay away from advertising awards.

When you take a stance and stick to it, it becomes your positioning. Today, the agency loves that as they know that we are positioned as an agency that is real. I am not against awards, it's just that I don't value it. I always say it is just an excuse to have free booze for one night. Awards would have been valuable if you are considered a more creative person as a result of getting it or if it led to the agency getting more business. None of the two happens as otherwise we would not have grown as an agency.

Who can hurt you?
Gauri can hurt me. Amitji can hurt me tremendously. PC Sreeram can hurt me. Ilaiyaraaja can hurt me. My parents fortunately never hurt me and have never given me any angst in my life.

Talk about your fascination for Amitabh Bachchan?
Everyone is a fan of Amitji. But what I find fascinating about this man is his ever-lasting personality. He always looks so cool. Even in his 70s' movies, when he walks with bell-bottoms and his dog collars standing up, he looks so cool. Today, guys are not as cool as what he was then. A lot of it is God gifted, a lot of it is maintained but a lot of it he has grown, and like how. The combo of it is lethal and you will not see that again in a long, long time. I don't think anybody is as popular as him even today. He is the most want to touch man in the country and is a 72-year-old. I swore to him that I will never write a serious or khadoos or dramatic role for him ever again in my life as he takes his role too seriously. I have suffered his khadoosness for one year and every time I ask him what is wrong, he says, 'I am in my role.' So, I will only write comic and slapstick roles for him now. He is one of the most sensitive persons I have met in my life. He gets hurt very fast. It shows on his face as he withdraws. On the last day of shooting Paa, we kept his look very secretive and one of the TOI photographers got it and it came in Bombay Times the next day. So, the next day, in front of people he told me how he felt that I had leaked it out. I lost it and sent him a really harsh message. He sends me back the most touching message saying, 'Why is it that I am always wrong.' It was a painfully written message and I knew that the man was genuinely hurt about having hurt me.

Will you make a film without Mr.Bachchan?
I wish I can keep finding ideas for making films with him. I have already got several parts of him in my films. I don't want to force-fit him into ideas just to work with him. I have taken his voice in Shamitabh. He is actually a kid who is sarcastic and that part of him I used in Paa. In Cheeni Kum I used the part of him being khadhoos and the adult who is sarcastic. All throughout the shooting of both Cheeni Kum and Shamitabh he has behaved like a khadoos with me as he was in his role. People ask me how I have lost weight so much, I said, 'Just work with Amitabh Bachchan for one film.' Amitabh Bachchan is the best weight-loss programme in the world. He is so much in the role so you are always on tenterhooks. But in Paa, he was always like a kid, so I put on weight. But I also know that if there is one person who makes me more comfortable than me myself, it is him.

Each of your films seem to be concept based and extremely original.
I don't want to make a great film or a funny film. I want to try an idea that has not been done before. That is my trip. I am also a fan of people who have tried something different and have originality written all over them. For instance, Amitji is an original. You can't have another Amitabh Bachchan. Ilaiyaraaja is an original. PC Sreeram is an original, Sridevi is an original. People ask me what I like the most about Dhanush. It is that he is an original. Being original is a rare commodity in our industry and that is what I am hungry for.