The masterclass with veteran actress Shabana Azmi moderated by Vidya Balan, at the MAMI Mumbai Film Festival 2024, left the audience inspired. The two acclaimed actresses shared their journeys, offering insightful perspectives on the craft of acting, the evolving landscape of Indian cinema, and the key to staying relevant.

During their conversation about the diverse mediums in today’s entertainment landscape, Vidya asked Shabana about her love for theatre, given her unforgettable performances in plays like Tumhari Amrita and Broken Images.

“I still see myself as a film actor,” Shabana responded, elaborating, “I’m trained in cinema and understand the medium much better. However, I believe the ideal situation for an actor is to work in both mediums.”

Shabana said, “While theatre isn’t my first medium, I find it incredibly challenging. The thrill of performing live on stage is unmatched. However, I wouldn’t say it’s the most satisfying because a film performance lasts forever, whereas theatre is ephemeral.”

Vidya added, “I’ve been offered a few plays, but I haven’t had the courage to say yes. The idea of performing in front of a live audience is extremely intimidating.”

Vidya brought up the fact that Shabana has starred in a diverse range of films, from arthouse cinema to mainstream escapist hits. When asked about the contrasting impact and reception of her vast body of work, she replied, “I just have a ball. I surrender myself to the director. For example, if I were to ask someone like Manmohan Desai, ‘What does this mean?’ He’d reply, ‘Iska kuchh matlab nahi hai. Main bol raha hoon yeh hai iska matlab. Yeh Satyajit Ray ki picture nahi hai’(laughs!). And you are happy to surrender to someone who directs with such conviction.”

Elaborating on her experience of working in mainstream and offbeat cinema, she said, “It’s actually easier for actors to perform in arthouse cinema because it is realistic. Hindi cinema used to operate in an alternative reality; it didn’t matter if you were playing a policeman or a businessman – their homes looked no different from one another. The lack of attention to detail drove me crazy. It was left to art films to capture those finer nuances. I feel there was a design behind it though – Hindi cinema aimed to cater to the lowest common denominator and wanted to be all India. This focus on mass appeal made it more challenging to create credibility in such a stereotypical world.”

Shabana expressed her disappointment over the decline of lip-synced songs in Hindi cinema, saying, “I lament the loss of songs being sung in sync because, in Hindi films, we tell our stories through songs. These songs were like little philosophies that captured life’s moments. We had a song for every situation, creating a nostalgic connection. However, in the effort to be modern, we’re replacing the song with something no one is paying attention to.”

Vidya agreed, adding, “I absolutely miss lip-syncing to songs; they have now been relegated to the background. I also feel that the urge to be universal is robbing the Hindi film industry of its unique essence.”

When asked how she has managed to stay relevant over the decades, Shabana shared, “I’ve never been someone to rest on past achievements because I constantly seek new challenges. So, staying relevant is important to me. Even after 50 years, I am still learning. I adapt to changes, like working with green screens (chroma) where I react to nothing.”

On the topic of ageing and the kind of roles that women get offered, Shabana concluded, “Ageing has never been a problem for me, I embrace it as a natural part of life. I don’t try to look younger than I am because there’s nothing more beautiful than ageing gracefully. Even in my 30s, I wasn’t doing only naachne-gaane ke roles; I was playing substantial characters. Actors who start playing meaningful roles have a longer career span. There’s always more space for characters than just leading men and women.”

When I was working with women living in slums, I was concerned that if I accepted the role (in Fire), it could be used against me, making it difficult for those women to continue working with me. Zoya (Akhtar), who was only 18 then, asked, ‘If you like the script, what’s the big deal?’ Farhan, even younger, liked the script but was concerned about the ending — my character was meant to die in the fire. He argued it would suggest the character did something wrong, insisting she needed to survive. I shared his feedback with Deepa (Mehta). Ultimately, my entire family supported my decision

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While Vivek Oberoi has done a variety of films in his career in the Hindi film industry, he has occasionally picked up projects from the South, too, to push his boundaries. While Rakta Charitra (2010) marked his debut in Telugu cinema, more recently, he has been seen in films like Vivegam (Tamil), Lucifer (Malayalam) and Rustum (Kannada). His next outing is the Malayalam actioner Kaduva, which is set in the 1990s and will see him locking horns with Prithviraj Sukumaran.

“As an actor, it’s important for me to understand the milieu in which the film is set,” he says, adding, “Irrespective of whether it’s an out-and-out commercial film or a content-driven project, I create a backstory for my character and understand the motives which drive his actions. Whether I play the good guy or the bad guy, I approach every role with the same level of sincerity and aim to make it as genuine as possible.”

Elaborating about working in the south film industry, Vivek who has shared screen space with renowned actors like Ajith and Ram Charan, shares, “It takes a very different approach, especially Malayalam cinema. Clubbing them under one bracket is not has its own identity, peculiarities and specialities. What I like about Malayalam cinema is their innovation in storytelling and the intricacy with which they write their screenplays. Malayalam cinema never had enough money to make big scale films. The size of their content has grown considerably. Lucifer was big budget-wise and so is Kaduva.”

Vivek says, “Even with big budgets, it’s now part of their DNA to work with detailed storytelling and engage people, sometimes even without a visual spectacle.”

Talking about Tamil and Telugu cinema, the actor adds, “Tamil and Telugu cinema have been bigger in terms of financial play and in recent times, their films are engaging audiences all over the country, and registering great box office collections. There is a vacuum created by Hindi cinema with exceptions of filmmakers like Rohit Shetty. We have stopped the Manmohan Desai and Prakash Mehra entertainers and veered towards more urban stories. We went into the zone of calling family entertainers, formula films, something that all of India responds to. While it has its benefits, it leaves behind the ability to entertain an all-India audience. South Indian filmmakers are fulfilling that in great style — they’re able to do it with newness, visual appeal and storytelling. Initially, our films would be remade in the south and it is a kind of a role reversal now. We are constantly remaking films from their narratives. There is a connect on a story level with their content. The south film industry takes a very different approach, which is incredible.”

“The reason I love working in the South Indian film industries is because I have built wonderful relationships across industries. Working there is like working with friends. They have innovative ideas and there is a strong potential to bring them to the Hindi speaking audience. The other thing is the commercial success, which the south has been able to provide well,” he signs off.

Writer-director Milap Milan Zaveri talks about the longevity of masala potboilers in an age of critic-friendly OTT platforms, creative conflict with John Abraham, why ’70s cinema influences him a lot and his upcoming film Satyameva Jayate 2. Excerpts:

Satyameva Jayate 2 is a film that wages war against corruption. It’s my tribute to filmmakers Manmohan Desai ji, Prakash Mehra, Subhash Ghai, Rakesh Roshan and Mukul Anand. It’s a tribute to these directors, the films they made and that era when cinema was larger than life and heroes had all the good qualities. They preached harmony, secularism, fought evil and corruption and protected women. They did it all while entertaining you. They sang, danced, cracked jokes and beat up the bad guys. That is the kind of cinema that I grew up on. I would go to Gaiety-Galaxy (chain of single-screen theatres) with whatever little pocket money I had and I would watch these films. Look at Rohit Shetty’s films today, for that matter. I don’t make films on a scale as big as his, but he inspires me to offer over the top entertainment. Someone might say, how can anyone rip a tyre apart? But a common man has an alter ego. He wants to display that kind of strength. They want to see a kind of heroism that gives them an adrenalin rush. I want them to feel for that moment that hum bhi hero ban sakte hai.

I had to convince him. John has a physique that looks like he can lift a bike. It looks believable. He asked me, ‘Milap, how can I tear a tyre or lift a bike?’ In Force, he picked a bike, I told him this time, you lift the bike with the rider (laughs!). I remember this was trolled a lot on Twitter.

John asked me, “Milap, are you sure!” He has often said that I am his cheat day. He generally follows a healthy diet otherwise, in terms of his film choices, and then there’s me. He gets to indulge in some masala entertainment with me. By nature, he leans towards something like a Parmanu: The Story Of Pokhran, Batla House or Madras Cafe. I am the one who has brought him to this world of masala heroism. Nikkhil (Advani) often teases me by saying, “Yaar, thode kam punch line likh.”

Cinemas are ten thousand times more comfortable than sitting at home. This whole notion of how cinemas are over, and OTT is the way ahead, is absolute gibberish. The day a big film like Sooryavanshi was released, you couldn’t stop people from going to the cinemas. We saw that happening. Even Eternals! The box office was on fire that weekend. People want to see big-budget action extravaganzas and commercial films on the big screen. You cannot enjoy those on TV without a crowd whistling and cheering around you. Cinemas are back in a huge way; I would say bigger than before. It took a Rohit Shetty who waited for two years to give us the courage to hold on to our films, too. People are bound to come in big numbers as they want to get out. Everyone was in their homes for almost two years! OTT can never replace the big screen. Aap chaahe jitna bhi ghar ka khaana khaalo, aap restaurant jaoge.

I agree. Both offer unique experiences. They said radio will kill cinemas, TV will kill cinemas, VCR will kill cinemas, and now, OTT will kill cinemas, but no one has to die for the other to survive. Everyone can live and co-exist. I feel going forward, content that is critic-friendly may find its way into the OTT more. They will be appreciated more on that platform. Big budget extravaganzas will need the big screens. Look at the south market. They have never lost sight of the mass audience. Commercial entertainment rules there, so heroes are revered. The escapism that these films offer will never be obsolete. You want to get away from your day-to-day problems. Of course, I want to see realistic, gritty content as well, but I want some guilty pleasure, too. I want to be taken over by masala entertainment with its claps, whistle inducing dialoguebaazi and action.

His deep baritone spills on to our pages, flowing into reams of stories and anecdotes, that often go on to become 'quotables' for ever. Such is the power of his impeccable voice and his unfettered memory. He has that supreme quality of keeping you riveted in the movies, and stirring up a conversation on the couch with as much passion. At 74, AB is cooler than the millenials of the day. He's a champ on social media - taking the good, the bad and the trollers in his stride. Yes, he plays it safe with words, but his words are seemingly unstoppable. At the same time, he's never lost the emotional connect with the people or the 'golden' phase of cinema that roots him to his beginnings. Long before he turned into a megastar. As the third instalment of Sarkar, directed by Ram Gopal Varma (RGV), awaits release, in a long-winding chat, he talks about trolls, timeless classics of Bollywood, legends of yore and the superstars of the future. Read on...

Ram Gopal Varma says that if you hadn't agreed to play Sarkar on screen, he wouldn't have made the film. He has also said, 'The Godfather can be made without Marlon Brando, but Sarkar cannot be made without Amitabh Bachchan.' Your reaction?
He is being too generous. Sarkar (2005) was my first film with Ramu, but even before it was made, I was always appreciative of his work. It was Abhishek who initiated the idea for Sarkar 3. Ramu and I kept meeting over the years and talking about it. We would discuss various aspects of life and movies and I would chat with him about palace politics. For instance, even in a king's home, there must be disturbances and domestic problems. We always wondered that if the king was emotionally upset about his personal issues and he had to make a decision that would impact the lives of others, would his choices be ridden by his emotional conflict. Would he carry the same vein of disappointment when he had to make a statement that would probably change the lives of millions?

That was one aspect. The other interesting aspect we explored was the several rings of power points around every powerful individual, be it a king, president, prime minister or any celebrity. Isn't it possible that each ring inadvertently becomes a power centre and has its individual influence? We thought of building a story which incorporates all of this. From Sarkar to Sarkar Raj (2008) and now Sarkar 3, the story has progressed. The main protagonist is being played by the same actor, unlike in The Godfather (1974). Marlon Brando finishes in one, and then Al Pacino takes over for the remaining two.

Talking about The Godfather, what impression did it leave on you when you first watched the film?
Who wasn't impacted by The Godfather? The whole world of mafia has been very intriguing, exciting and interesting... just to understand how it works, who are these people, what are their lives are and what is their thought process.

As part of Sarkar 3 promotions, you were interviewed for the first time ever by your director and that too, by someone like RGV who doesn't mince words...
I talk to all my directors about my movies and other films, which often leads to a healthy debate. For the first time, I was interviewed by my director (RGV) and it was filmed. I think a general interview makes for good reading, but there isn't any kind of documentation of facts and stories that go beyond the actor. I lament that and I feel that we are not leaving anything for posterity. I would love to know what went through Dilip (Kumar) saab's mind when he was doing Devdas (1955), how he prepared himself to say those lines in the way he did. What was Guru Dutt thinking when he was making Kaagaz Ke Phool (1959), which, according to me, is his most brilliant work... I would love to know why he used a certain kind of lighting or why he used a crane for a certain scene. Why did Raj Kapoor think of making Awaara (1951), and how did Mehboob saab conceive the idea of Mother India (1957)? It is sad that nobody talks about all this. So many greats have gone by and we have no documentation of these facts. After understanding those scenes, maybe you would want to go and watch the film again; it makes it so much more interesting. Somebody has to provoke actors to be able to do that. They do it in the West all the time, and not just with their own films. A friend of mine who was studying in a college in London, told me that she admired my films and wanted to meet me. When I was visiting London, she took me to SOAS (School of Asian Studies), and I went to a class where British students were watching one of my films, and the teacher (also a Brit), was decimating frame to frame. That is how they were being initiated to Hindi cinema. I am sure Indian institutes that have courses in film studies do that too, but it would be wonderful if such material reached more people. Our audiences are intelligent; it would only make them more aware if we have an archive or library where they can go and see and read all this.

In an interview, Ramu had said that while filming Sarkar, there was a scene that you wanted to shoot differently. You called him up at night and discussed it and there was a creative difference. The scene was reshot, but eventually, you retained the first cut. Do you often find it tough to detach from the character you are playing after you are done shooting for it?
Sometimes, after you finish your day's work, you go home and think about a particular scene or shot. Yes, there have been many times when I have called up directors in the middle of the night and asked them whether we should change a scene or do it better. Hrishida (Hrishikesh Mukherjee) would almost slap you and say, 'Rubbish! If you want a retake, you better pay for it'. As an actor, this is my personal attitude and I am fortunate that my directors often gave me the chance to reshoot a scene and improvise. Well, there were also times when I suggested something and it completely failed. It would happen with Manmohan Desai. I would tell him, 'Man...isko ek baar aur kar dete hai'. He would say, 'Ja, ja...sab theek hai'. I would request again and he would let us reshoot the scene. And once the shot was done, he would say, 'Pehle wala take rakhna, yeh bakwaas kiya hai isne' (laughs!). So, these are special moments we actors share with our directors.

Ramu is the kind of person who says what he feels. He is expressive, sometimes even politically incorrect, but he stands by what he says. How do you react to the flattering comments he makes about you on social media - in his own style (at times abusive, too)?
I think Ramu has the quality of an honest man, and nobody wants to appreciate that. He says what he feels, and there are very few who can express themselves. He is open-minded and he can tell you on your face that 'This is rubbish, I don't like what you are saying. I don't like what you are doing. How can you be working on this film? You have praised this film, but I think it is rubbish.' How wonderful it is to have someone who can be upfront and tell you what he is really thinking. That's his temperament and attitude and I don't think that there is anything wrong with it.

In an interview, Yami Gautam (your co-star in Sarkar 3) said that the name Amitabh Bachchan in itself is intimidating. Every time you work with actors from the younger generation, there is a process where they have to first get over their 'awe moment' and then move on to give the shot...
These are aspects in the mind of the media. We are all artistes and professionals who come on the set and act. Why should someone be intimidated by me?

Well, they would be nervous and conscious, at least?
No. In fact, I feel nervous around younger actors, because they are so well developed in their craft that I have great admiration for them. I see the ease with which the younger generation of actors work, that's the kind of ease that I never had in all these 48 years. I ask them how they are so comfortable doing what they are doing. It is quite amazing, really. I always tell Ranbir Kapoor that his face is God-gifted. He doesn't have to move his face or change his expressions much, he can just stand there and whatever he has to say is conveyed. For an actor, it is the most difficult thing to do. In Bajirao Mastani, Ranveer Singh was incredibly perfect. For someone who is not a Maharashtrian, the way he pulled off the role was impeccable. In Highway, there is a scene where Randeep Hooda is depressed and Alia Bhatt holds him close and consoles him. I cannot forget her expression in that scene. And then you see her in Dear Zindagi where she is unbelievably different. I see films of these actors and I learn a lot from them.

Lately, trolling has become a huge point of discussion and a growing concern, too. You have a massive following on social media and you are a prolific user of that platform. What are your views on it? Have you also become overcautious about what you write, tweet and blog, fearing how it will be interpreted?
I think initially, it was great fun to be able to express yourself, and more enjoyable when someone reacted to it. Then gradually, as I wrote certain things, I could see that there were people who were reading between the lines and making their own interpretations, and it appeared as though I was offending someone. I didn't want to do that. At the same time, I don't want to stop tweeting and I am not going to stop anyone from abusing me, but yes, I think I need to be a little cautious about what I say on social media and how I say it, because there could be people who could misinterpret it and perhaps, in a peculiar way, I could be responsible for either intimidating or insulting them. Sometimes, you have to be cautious about what you write. In the world that we live in today, where everything is open, known, spoken, heard and read, this has become an obvious issue. There are some who don't care about it and I admire them as they have the guts and the strength to express themselves and eventually face whatever happens. I feel that I don't want to insult anyone; therefore, I make an effort to check what I am saying and analyse it so that it doesn't offend someone.

Recently, the Harvard University Press came up with a book on your film Amar Akbar Anthony. Your thoughts?
Even around the time that it was being made (1977), there was an American author who had come down to Mumbai where I was shooting for Suhaag, and she had expressed her keenness in writing a book on Amar Akbar Anthony. There was an interest particularly in that film and many other films made by Manmohan Desai around that time. In this book, they have analysed the entire film and put it in the context of what India is today and what it means.

Do you think their perspective of the movie is very different from ours?
I don't know, I guess they would be able to say that better. I think that we make some very good cinema and when some people ask me, 'When are we going to make films like Hollywood?' I turn around and ask them, 'When is Hollywood going to make films like us?' Hai ki nahi, aisa films banake dikhao...