Al Pacino, Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro at the The Irishman's international premiere and closing gala during the 63rd BFI London Film Festival at the Odeon Luxe Leicester Square in October in London. Pics/ Getty Image

Ahead of Martin Scorsese's American crime thriller The Irishman dropping on Netflix, Sunday mid-day recreates cinema history, in conversation with Al Pacino, Robert De Niro, in the same room/frame
Mayank Shekhar (MID-DAY; November 24, 2019)

"Oh yeah, at Anupam's place, I remember," says Robert De Niro, sitting alongside Al Pacino, end-September at New York's Mandarin Oriental Hotel, as I remind De Niro about the one time he came to Mumbai, and had a full posse of Bollywood's A-list (from Anil Kapoor to Ranbir Kapoor), swarming on the floor by his feet—a picture that went viral online. Unsure if he was embarrassed by that public display of deep bhakti. He certainly didn't let on. This isn't surprising.

Between the two, De Niro, 76, comes across as the severely reserved, quiet type. Perhaps he saves public pronouncements and choicest words for his President! Pacino, on the other hand, despite age, 79, appears to have retained that slightly frazzled but youthful gregariousness we've come to admire him on screen for, over generations—one-on-one, he's far more forthcoming with opinions, and anecdotes.

The point I was trying to make with both De Niro and Pacino was if they're even vaguely aware of the sort of unparalleled weight and excitement their names—individually; forget, for a moment, together—carry across the globe, let alone in Mumbai, which is half a world away from Manhattan, where they've honed and practiced their craft since the late 1960s.

"It's a good question," Pacino mulls in his husky baritone. For him this sort of undying global admiration quite simply boils down to doors that it can open up when he's travelling. "My daughter wanted to go to Japan, you know. And I said, yeah, yeah, alright—was thinking about what we could work out. Because you really get access to things. And it's wonderful. What's better than that, right?"

Right. For De Niro, this excitement equals expectations alone. He recalls how in 2008, Al Pacino and him were in Europe together—he can't remember if it was Paris or London—and he thought in his head, "You know, it feels so nice, there're so many people; this big premiere on the street and everything. We should be able to give something to deserve this kind of adulation, or whatever you want to call it. Let's hope we can do something really special the next time that we're in this situation."

That 2008 'situation' was Righteous Kill—only the second time De Niro and Pacino shared screen (after Michael Mann's Heat). Not too many people have seen Righteous Kill. I just had, on US Netflix, before I met them. It's a buddy-cop thriller, with twists and turns that Abbas-Mustan could've pulled off on a decent day. Even as I bring it up later in the conversation, De Niro tones down while referring to it, mindful of not overtly dissing his own film.

Pacino is more elaborately realistic: "What was that thing that Paul Newman once said? He said, 'He works!' Because if he only did what he really felt good about—he'd work once in every five years. And he can't do that. As an actor, stuff comes to you. It's not like you generate your own work, although Bob [De Niro] does a lot of that. I have a little bit [of that going] in theatre. That's where my thing is. I'm pretty much half and half—I do more theatre than I do films, [especially] when I'm thinking about what to do next."

"You know, I was just thinking about this play called The Visit. Don't know if you know that one. Alfred Lunt and Lynn Fontane did it on Broadway. Ingrid Bergman and Anthony Quinn did it as a movie. But it really is a play—has some surreal stuff. But then, I found out [playwright] Tony Kushner is now adapting it. So I had one idea. And it's taken! In some ways though, I'm lucky to have a go-to thing in live theatre. Maybe I'll come to your place with something once."

Okay, maybe I skipped a beat. While he can't say for sure if the thought occurred to him during the London/Paris Righteous Kill premiere—as producer, De Niro did in fact plot the making of The Irishman, having read the book I Heard You Paint Houses by Charles Brandt. And seeing in it potential to star alongside Pacino, Joe Pesci and others, in a film directed by Martin Scorsese, with whom he's collaborated nine times—pretty much all of which, starting with Mean Streets (1973), rank among the greatest films of all time! The Irishman drops on Netflix on November 27.

Pacino, rather surprisingly (or not), had never worked with Scorsese before. How'd that go? "What can you say? It's just easy. Working with Marty [Scorsese] is like working [jumping] without a net and feeling safe. That's a good way to describe it. I'm sure that's how Bob feels too. It's why they do what they do together. And I feel that. There've been directors I've had that feeling with, but not many."

The Irishman centres on the true-life, stellar story of Teamster (truckers') Union boss Jimmy Hoffa—whose mysterious disappearance in 1975 still remains strong in American consciousness—and a truck driver, Frank Sheeran (De Niro), who became a hit-man, and Hoffa's key consigliore.

Pacino plays Hoffa, a role immortalised by Jack Nicholson in the 1992 biopic. Did he look at that closely? "No. I loved Jack. But that has nothing to do with the way I was interpreting [the part]. It only inspired me, when I saw it [and it helps]. Like it makes you say, yeah, I'm not the only one doing this. That person exists. I saw Bob Duvall do American Buffalo, I remember, on stage. I thought his characterisation is brilliant. And I'm thinking, yes, so I can do [the play] now. I won't do it like him."

Longish pause, and Pacino, ever so generous in this chat, reveals, "But I'll tell you one thing: When I saw [Paul] Muni's Scarface (1932), all I wanted to do was copy him in that performance. Of course it turns out—it always turns out—that I didn't. Don't know why I didn't. Maybe it was in the back of my head. But he gave me something with the anarchy in that performance, which was incredible. After I saw him, I said, let's do this film, you know. With Jimmy Hoffa, there was so much stuff on him. And so you watch, and you wait, and you hope to absorb."

Pacino has of course, banged it with biographical roles in the past. I recall Sidney Lumet's Serpico (1973): "I knew him—NYPD officer Frank Serpico, on whom the film's based—very well. And I studied him, and worked with him." How about Lumet's Dog Day Afternoon (on an actual, failed robbery in a Brooklyn bank)? "For some reason, I didn't meet him [the person Sonny Wortzik character was inspired from]. Because I had some sort of idea [about him]. And again, he was in prison. And I didn't meet [Dr Jack] Kervorkain either. I don't know if you ever got to see that [HBO's 2010 TV film, You Don't Know Jack, on a controversial euthanasia practitioner]."

Brian De Palma's Scarface (1983). Serpico, which also somewhat got channeled into Om Puri's sub inspector Anant Velankar in Ardh Satya (1983). Dog Day Afternoon (1975). The fact that these are monuments in cinema history, having aged not a day since their release, should be lost on no one—least of all, late-millennials. In fact it's impossible to touch upon Pacino and De Niro's vast body of work, without extending it into a full-blown thesis. Suffice it for most recent relevance—arguably the best film of 2019, Jaoquim Phoenix starrer Joker is, at its core, De Niro in Scorsese's Taxi Driver (1976) and The King Of Comedy (1982), rolled into one.

From even before Francis Ford Coppolla's The Godfather (1972)—that Pacino broke out into the global scene with—and Godfather 2 (1974), where De Niro and Pacino were in the same film (but never in the same frame), and which fetched De Niro his first Oscar (second was for Raging Bull), the careers of these two masters have wholly mirrored each other's.

Both method actors, having debuted in the same year (1969)— graduated from the same New York acting institutes, Actors' Studio, Stella Adler, HB Studio—were effectively the right conduits at the right time, brutally heralding the golden age of American (realist) cinema. Over years, film-buffs have been split between admiring one more than the other, but inevitably both.

At this stage in their life, I ask them how they look back at this rivalry/relationship, and how it's evolved. "Well, I think we're both happy to be still working," De Niro says. "And alive," Pacino cuts in, to add: "You know, we've been through a lot of the same things—unusual stuff happened to us in this profession. We knew each other when we were very young too—not well, but we had met. Throughout the many years of knowing each other, we had a certain comfort, when we'd meet, share certain things. It was helpful."

4 AM friends, on occasion? "Well, if I need to ask him about something, we talk about it. Or he does with me," De Niro says, defying at least at this moment that there is extreme envy among equals. There's extreme empathy too. It's also the roles that's brought them together for the third time in The Irishman—mob-boss, and his aide. You can feel a certain camaraderie/chemistry spilling over from the screen, which is heartwarming for fans.

For, The Irishman—a perfectly conclusive show-reel of Scorsese's (under)world—quite literally travels back in time, with a novel 'de-ageing' camera technology, seamlessly transforming De Niro, Pacino, Pesci and others into their younger selves. De Niro says, "Even before the de-ageing was as complete as in the final film, a few people that Marty had screened it for didn't find age getting in the way of the story. But it looks pretty good [now]. I hope audiences will go with it. And it's interesting."

Hell, yeah! How many film-buffs of my vintage (growing up in the '90s) have incessantly relived that coffee-shop scene in Michael Mann's Heat (1995)—"A guy told me one time: Don't let yourself get attached to anything you're not willing to walk out of in 30 seconds flat, if you feel the heat around the corner" (De Niro's line).

Just watched it again on YouTube—two stationary cameras flipping between over-the-shoulder shots of De Niro and Pacino. There were rumours that they hadn't actually shot the scene together. Fact is they hadn't rehearsed it together. It's the first time the two superstars were in the same movie-frame, after killing it not-so-softly, and separately, for 26 years in Hollywood. Goose-bumps cut across generations/globe.

During this interview, I similarly see De Niro and Pacino sitting a few inches away, talking not to each other, but to me. Is it out of some unconscious nervousness towards breaking ice that I ask De Niro as he walks in, dressed in thin jacket and T-shirt, and places his phone on the table, "Oh hey, you got the new iPhone 11 already (it'd just been launched)." Eh?

After the interview, Pacino, in his adorably clumsy state—in black blazer, loose black shirt buttoned down, and dark glasses—plucks the airpod that'd been stuck to his ears throughout: "I can't believe I'd been wearing this all along; man, what'd you think of me?" De Niro wraps up asking about why it's called Mumbai, and not Bombay: "What's the difference? And yeah, hope to see you soon." Yeah, sure. Just another day (or 20 minutes) at work, no? Huh!

Bobby Deol turns to role played by Al Pacino in Scarface for his next with Sanjay Dutt, tentatively titled The Rise And Fall Of Bambai
Upala KBR (MID-DAY; November 29, 2018)

Set to play brother to a gangster in his next, Bobby Deol, we hear, is turning to American film Scarface's Tony Montana — made popular by Al Pacino — for inspiration. Deol, who plays the sibling of the character essayed by Sanjay Dutt, is set to pull off a sinister part after several years.

A source from the creative team of the film, tentatively titled The Rise And Fall Of Bambai, tells mid-day, "Bobby's role is dark and challenging. He has never done a movie based on the underworld before. [Deol and Dutt were active] in the '90s, which makes this selection apt since the film is based across 1930 to 1990. Bobby's role is like Tony Montana's in Scarface. He will be seen as the wild brother of a powerful don, a psycho who kills, and then [reasons]. There is no justification to his evil deeds."

Deol, the source adds, was initially apprehensive of pulling off the part, but was equally excited to be part of the film. A source from the trade circuit reveals that while Dutt and Deol have been roped in to play the main characters, Aayush Sharma has been approached for the part of the youngest gangster. Sharma confirms the news to mid-day, adding, "Nothing has been finalised yet. I will meet the team this week again to discuss the film."

Being produced by Shaira Khan, Arjun N Kapoor (pictured right, above) and Prernaa Arora, the film sees Khan's nephew Adnan Shaikh slipping into the director's chair. Even though it was suggested that the film was based on don Karim Lala, Khan says, "The film is not based on any real-life figure. It is a fictionalised story, a retro saga that puts the spotlight on the rise of Mumbai's underworld. However, some true incidents have been referenced for inspiration."

Co-producer Kapoor adds, "I'm excited to dabble in a different genre. Ahmed [Khan, under who Adnan Shaikh worked as an assistant for several years] is guiding us on the project."

MUMBAI MIRROR (March 2, 2016)

Bollywood's glitterati talk about a fan moment with a childhood idol which left them starry-eyed
Sanyukta Iyer (MUMBAI MIRROR; June 29, 2015)

Big B left Jacqueline Fernandez speechless 
When I came to India for the first time in 2008, I knew only the popular superstars, Salman Khan, Shah Rukh Khan, Aishwarya Rai and of course, Amitabh Bachchan. In my first film, Sujoy Ghosh's fantasy adventure Aladin, I was cast as Jasmine and Mr Amitabh Bachchan was the genie. He was the first actor I met, and one of the biggest superstars. It was a typical fan girl moment for me. I didn't know what to say or do!

Jimmy Sheirgill feels the sparks from Om Puri 
I'll never forget the first time I met Om Puri and Tabu on the sets of my debut film Maachis. Omji is a legendary actor and my first shot was with him. Unbelievable!

Then, in my second film, Mohabattein, I had Amitabh Bachchan and Shah Rukh Khan standing beside me and talking to me. I had to tell myself to chill and focus on my acting.

Parineeti Chopra takes the Saif way out 
I came to Mumbai for the first time in 2009 for the screening of my sister, Priyanka Chopra's film. As I stepped in through the studio gates, I saw someone talking on the phone. He turned around and I realised it was my hero, Saif Ali Khan. I almost swooned! After I became an actress, I told him about the incident and how interacting with him was a surreal experience. I think he was really embarrassed because I kept telling him how much I liked him.

It's Woody Allen, Al Pacino and Sly for Vivek Oberoi 
When I was completing my master's degree in New York, I auditioned for a role knowing that I did not fit the character. I went only because I'd heard Woody Allen was one of the judges. I stood for hours in the queue, went on stage, saw Woody, was left dumbstruck, didn't do anything and just left.

Another time, walking in the park in the Big Apple, I thought I saw someone familiar sitting on a bench reading a newspaper. I looked closely and then noticing a man in a suit staring at me, gestured towards the guy on the bench. He nodded a 'yes' and I went up to Al Pacino. He looked up at me from the paper. I told him that I was from India and his fan. He retorted, "Good, now can I get back to my paper?" That was my cue to leave.

Then, in the final semester I was working as an assistant on a documentary film that traced the making of the Rocky series. I got to be around Rocky Balboa, Sylvester Stallone, for three days. Amazing!

Aditi Rao Hydari dances to the Badshah's tunes 
It was my first live performance on stage and my partner was the Badshah. I was dizzy with excitement, hypnotised by Shah Rukh Khan's charisma. He treats every woman like a princess. I'll always be his fan girl!

Akshay Kumar on why he won’t chase festival release dates, but will continue to chase people pooping outside his house....
Sarita A Tanwar (DNA; February 6, 2015)


You are the man of the moment. Baby is holding steady even in the second week. How does it feel?
It feels good. First of all, it was a honour to work with Neeraj Pandey again. He makes very good movies. He extracts stories from reality and puts them together. He is not the kind of director who watches Hollywood DVDs and makes films. He is one of the very few original writers who pens a script from his mind and makes the film. He doesn’t believe in taking inspiration from other films. His films always have a message. He is a very honest director and I feel lucky that I got a chance to work with him.

As Ajay Singh Rathore, you didn’t step out of the character even once. Knowing that you love to improvise on the sets, was this tough? Did you have to work hard on that or did you just follow Neeraj’s vision?
I just followed him. There are some movies which need improvisation like a Housefull. Even a Hera Pheri, it needs improvisation. There are some films like these where it happens... Or like when I played a cop’s role in Rowdy Rathore, then I get to improvise. But not in a film like Baby, which revolves around a sensitive and a real incident. You cannot go out of your character. I am lucky enough to work with different kinds of directors.

You have suddenly started being part of what is considered good cinema. Apart from still being part of hardcore commercial films. What’s the thought behind that?
That’s what I have done all my life. I did Special 26, 8X10 Tasveer, OMG! Oh My God...What happens is with my career, I always try to do different kinds of subjects. I don’t want to be having just one image, like after this I am doing Housefull. I think it started with Sangharsh. I used to do commercial films before because I didn’t have the mindset to do any other kind of cinema. I couldn’t relate to that, plus at that time, I just wanted to earn money and that would come only with commercial cinema. But now I am in a position where I can take risks. I can cut my price into half and do a small film with the subject of my liking, which will give me critical acclaim because it all depends on me. I am doing a film called Airlift. It’s a very serious film and I can do it now. To me nothing else matters if I like a script, I just do it. I experiment a lot with myself.

You have never had a Diwali or a Eid release. Deliberate?
I have three to four releases in a year. I am not going to wait for a Diwali release, have those big releases... I want to release my films whenever they are ready. It does matter with those kind of dates. There are too many people aiming for those festival dates, so I don’t hanker after them.

But big festival holidays ensure big bucks. Why would you not want your films to release then?
They should. But it all depends on my producers, when my films are ready and what date they want to release it. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I finish my films very fast and it doesn’t make sense for my producers to wait till the festival season at the end of the year to release their films. Like, I just started Brothers and it’s almost done. I am exactly 10 days away to finishing it. I finished Main Gabbar in August, 2014. Finshed means there is no shooting left. We decided to make Brothers somewhere around September last year and we are through with it.

Was Baby the most physically exhausting film you have done?
No, Baby was not exhausting. Brothers is exhausting. It has been the most physically exhausting film I have ever worked on. The action was tough and I reharsed a lot because it was a different kind of action. Also, I had to lose a lot of weight for this role. It’s a very physical part, not emotionally draining.

Which role left you emotionally drained?
No, I am not that kind of an actor who gets into the character so much. I just don’t get too deep into a role to affect me once I leave the set. I personally feel that actors fake it when they say that they got depressed after doing a role. I don’t know what actors mean when they say ‘Arey yaar, main character ke andar itna ghoos gaya hoon that I cannot come out. It’s taken me three months to come out of the character.’ I can understand if they say they were affected for a day or two perhaps... I remember reading about this scene between Robert De Niro and Al Pacino. They had a scene together where Pacino had to pant as if he had come running and deliver his lines to De Niro. So, Pacino went a long distance, ran and came running but when he reached his spot, he forgot his lines. Again he went back and ran a kilometre and he messed up his line. So then he was about to go behind and De Niro caught his hand, and said “Listen now can you try acting?’’ My approach is the same. Act like you have run and come. You don’t have to actually run. So don’t get into the part to the point it spills into your life. It’s called acting. So just act!

So you are saying no role has ever affected you that much?
I have played many disturbing characters whether it’s Sangharsh or Janwaar... and nothing affected me more than a day. If you see Marlon Brando, all these big actors, the so-called kings of acting, you will never hear them talking like this. It’s okay I can understand if you say that I am still feeling that character for a day... but after that, chal na, abhi khatam ho gaya.

You’ve spent over 20 years and done over 130 films — does the release of a new film still bring the butterflies?
Yes it does. And if it doesn’t work, then I am sad but only till Monday night. After that I have to carry on. I remember talking to Mr. Amitabh Bachchan about this long back, I don’t know whether he would remember it. But I said to him, ‘Sir, kabhi kabhi films nahi chalti, how does one deal with that?’ He said ‘Akshay, no problem, look straight, carry on ahead, work for your next film. Don’t take it too seriously.” When an actor of that caliber says: Don’t take it to your heart, otherwise you won’t be able to work for your next movie. You’ll destroy the next person’s film and points out that there is nothing you can do. It didn’t work, it didn’t work; you have to go ahead.

You’re the only actor from your generation to sport a salt-and-pepper look on and off-screen.
Why should I hide it? I have been working for the last 25 years. I am in my 40s. I have salt and pepper hair and stubble. Why should I hide it? I am even ready to age on screen. People should stop asking actors these questions. Why is this thinking only here? Why is it a problem? Everyone follows the west, so why not when it comes to this? Tom Cruise plays a old man in Tropic Thunder, he plays a old, fat, bald Jewish guy. I loved that. Why can’t we have that here?

Also, while most other actors of your generation shy away from working with younger heroes, you’re the first one to take the plunge with Brothers, where you share screen with Sidharth Malhotra.
Again, look in Hollywood, no one questions this aspect. You see the biggest of actors does one-minute roles in films. If a guy is making a film and if there is a small three-minute role also, the biggest of actors do it. I want to change that thought. And I can try and change it with my actions. So I am doing Brothers and am open to doing more such films. The role has to be good. Who else is in the film, how big is his role should not matter.

Over the last few years, you’ve had three-four releases a year. Are you planning to continue doing that?
I will continue to do all kinds of films. So I will balance serious films with a Housefull 3. Because if all I do are serious films, I will become a very depressed person. I can’t do that. I need my Sajid-Farhad and I need to laugh, I need my Riteish Deshmukh... But yes, to answer your question, I will continue making three-four releases a year. I have been doing that from the beginning of my career. It’s not a new thing.

Even SRK, Aamir and Salman did that at the beginning of their careers, but not once they became superstars.
Yes, that’s changing now. And it will change more.

You think they’ll do more films every year now?
Let’s not get into that.